The undeniable corruption of STGU

[Age]

I will tell you one thing and that is if I have any problems with Legacy i will be sending lots of e-mail to Bethesda or Moddoc and not going over to STGU and posting about it.I don't think it is a good idea for them to have officail forums as fansites are far better off for this as that is NCsoft and Arenanet policy on it.I will be doing the same exact thing I did when I bough SFC.2 EAW and OP and that was e-mailing Taldren and Interplay untill they told me to register on Taldren's Forums.That is what I suggest others do if they don't want to visit other fansites.
I am on to many boards as it is.

[KBF-Crim]

AdmBishop-11thFleet-™ @ Wed May 10, 2006 3:58 am wrote:

KBF-Crim wrote:

No...they do not....

"nothing to do with" and " company involvement" can be two separate issues...if he is talking about financial support, exectutive decisions, or hosting...and you are talking about Devs reading and posting....

You two are talking about two different things.....and mis understanding each other at the same time....

Right, perhaps that is simply a cultural barrier; in Britain, that would be interpreted as two ways of saying the same thing. Allow me to clarify:

The phrase “nothing to do with” is straight forward. The term "involvement," well, let the dictionary answer it.

Quote:

1. vt contain something: to contain or include as a necessary element of something
2. vt concern somebody: to be a matter that concerns or affects somebody
3. vt cause somebody to participate: to make somebody part of, or make somebody take part in, an event or ongoing process
4. vt implicate somebody: to connect a person with something

AND...as far as I know..Jaz isnt a brit....that leaves us with the possibilty of different interpretations....

KBF-Crim wrote:

An opinion is just that....everyone has one.....but when that opinion is presented to a controling entitiy...with the express purpose to get someone fired...that is another matter...

Please show evidence of Victor admitting to a scheme architected to remove ChessMess from his current occupation; or that statement is void.

The statement is based on the clearly worded post of Vic....and a couple years of observation....you'd have to be a four year old to fail to understand what he wrote....

KBF-Crim wrote:

And having witnessed just such a thing occur with Harry Lang in the past on the very forum leads me to simply take Vic at his word.....

Past events have no relevance in the current situation; circumstances and critical aspects are completely different in this case.[/quote]

Please....this whole entire situation is based on past events.... past events are a clear indication of how future events will play out...otherwise...there would be no point in keeping criminal records...would there....

KBF-Crim wrote:

I have a hunch the e-mail has allready been sent....just like the ones to GSA...

A hunch? Simply invalid without evidence.[/quote]

I didnt say it would hold up in court...but again....based on past actions....I would bet money on it...

KBF-Crim wrote:

And what of this "abuse of influence" charge?

*looks at internet manual*

I dont see that one listed....

Victor was referring to the fact that ChessMess has used his position to draw developers to the STGU, whilst ignoring separate sections of the community, such as STG who aided him in the past.[/quote]

What was it you said....oh yeah "Past events have no relevance in the current situation; circumstances and critical aspects are completely different in this case."

Is that an acceptible answer?...I didnt think so....

And what evidence do you have to base that charge upon?...other than Vics word?

KBF-Crim wrote:

He got a job at Maddoc.....he asked about favorite missions people would like to see....(BTW...he asked on OTHER sites too...I can provide a link if you wish)

So is this "abuse of infuence" really just about not asking the same question here?

The fact of the matter is, he failed to come here or to Trek-Online, two major sites, one of which is responsible for STGU’s existence today.[/quote]

AH...I see...so that is the fact of the matter ....he didnt post here or on wildcards site...so he is guilty of some mysterious internet crime worthy of giving up his employment...

Should the perpetual Devs all give up their jobs too?....they dont post here anymore you know...The quicksiver guys dont come around as of late either....should they give up their jobs too?

Talk about a stretch of the imagination....

KBF-Crim wrote:

I see a lot of retoric and accusations....but no evidence...

Interesting, since I see no evidence in your entire statement; elementary indeed. [/quote]

Interesting indeed....but this "other" evidence.....that seems to be clear and convincing enough proof of STGU's evil intents....

Alrighty then....

[Bishop]

Crim, I applaud you my friend, most people give up by now.

KBF-Crim wrote:

AND...as far as I know..Jaz isnt a brit....that leaves us with the possibilty of different interpretations....

Jaz’s STGU profile shows he at least lives in the United Kingdom, however you are right, that part of the argument may simply be cultural boundaries.

KBF-Crim wrote:

The statement is based on the clearly worded post of Vic....and a couple years of observation....you'd have to be a four year old to fail to understand what he wrote....

No one is denying that Victor believes ChessMess does not deserve the job he holds with MadDoc; I have stated that many times. What is simply preposterous is that you can say, without doubt, that Victor will be responsible for removing ChessMess from employment with MadDoc.

KBF-Crim wrote:

Please....this whole entire situation is based on past events.... past events are a clear indication of how future events will play out...otherwise...there would be no point in keeping criminal records...would there....

Circumstances Crim… I do not fully understand what happened with Harry Lang, however that is a completely different situation; which does not affect this argument in any way. The past in question here is directly related to the current situation.

KBF-Crim wrote:

What was it you said....oh yeah "Past events have no relevance in the current situation; circumstances and critical aspects are completely different in this case."

Is that an acceptible answer?...I didnt think so....

And what evidence do you have to base that charge upon?...other than Vics word?

As I said, that was a completely different situation. The evidence is there for all to see, developers and producers are all over there, posting at the STGU. None of them are here, so it is easy to speculate that Chess has used his connections in MadDoc to draw developers to his site, while ignoring the others.

KBF-Crim wrote:

AH...I see...so that is the fact of the matter ....he didnt post here or on wildcards site...so he is guilty of some mysterious internet crime worthy of giving up his employment...

Should the perpetual Devs all give up their jobs too?....they dont post here anymore you know...The quicksiver guys dont come around as of late either....should they give up their jobs too?

Talk about a stretch of the imagination....

No, as I have said before, he is accused of abusing his connections in an attempt to draw people to the STGU, whilst ignoring the STG and Trek-Online. He is guilty of insincerity, when it comes to bettering the community as a whole.

People visit different sites, I for example visit STG, you are most likely a STGU fan where others would be Trek-Online fans; how is it fair to the community if STGU fans get the ONLY say in development queries simply because Chess has connections within MadDoc? Victor or WildCard would both be happy to include other fan sites if the situation were reversed, because they are both in this for the community and the franchise we all love.

KBF-Crim wrote:

Interesting indeed....but this "other" evidence.....that seems to be clear and convincing enough proof of STGU's evil intents....

Alrighty then....

When did I say STGU was “evil?” I said they are acting in an unfair manner; by ignoring the clans, modders and entire sections of the community. Points explained in my previous statements.

[[UFP]Alexraptor]

well, you know what they say... Life isnt always fair.

[KBF-Crim]

AdmBishop-11thFleet-™ @ Thu May 11, 2006 7:19 am wrote:

Crim, I applaud you my friend, most people give up by now.

Most sane people.... :goofy

Quote:

KBF-Crim wrote:

AND...as far as I know..Jaz isnt a brit....that leaves us with the possibilty of different interpretations....

Jaz’s STGU profile shows he at least lives in the United Kingdom, however you are right, that part of the argument may simply be cultural boundaries.

Quite possible....point settled...

Quote:

KBF-Crim wrote:

The statement is based on the clearly worded post of Vic....and a couple years of observation....you'd have to be a four year old to fail to understand what he wrote....

No one is denying that Victor believes ChessMess does not deserve the job he holds with MadDoc; I have stated that many times.

And what does have to do with the price of tea in china?

Since when does a fan site admin have the right to dictate whom a developer should or should not hire?

Quote:

What is simply preposterous is that you can say, without doubt, that Victor will be responsible for removing ChessMess from employment with MadDoc.

I didnt say it....Vic did...I am simply taking what he said at face value...

Quote:

KBF-Crim wrote:

Please....this whole entire situation is based on past events.... past events are a clear indication of how future events will play out...otherwise...there would be no point in keeping criminal records...would there....

Circumstances Crim… I do not fully understand what happened with Harry Lang,

Then I offer my humble suggestion that you research the matter for yourself...

Quote:

however that is a completely different situation;

See above....

Quote:

which does not affect this argument in any way.

But if you do not fully understand...you cannot be certain when you say that....

Quote:

The past in question here is directly related to the current situation.

I agree...but a wider past....

Quote:

KBF-Crim wrote:

What was it you said....oh yeah "Past events have no relevance in the current situation; circumstances and critical aspects are completely different in this case."

Is that an acceptible answer?...I didnt think so....

And what evidence do you have to base that charge upon?...other than Vics word?

As I said, that was a completely different situation.

The evidence is there for all to see, developers and producers are all over there, posting at the STGU. None of them are here,

Again...the basic truth of the matter....and the scource for the entire suituation...

Some people call it "sour grapes"...

Quote:

so it is easy to speculate that Chess has used his connections in MadDoc to draw developers to his site, while ignoring the others.

speculate?? ...easy?....for whom?

It could not be the simple fact of how other Devs where treated here in the past?

It must be that Chess has exerted complete mind control over people he doesnt even work for?

Bah...

Quote:

KBF-Crim wrote:

AH...I see...so that is the fact of the matter ....he didnt post here or on wildcards site...so he is guilty of some mysterious internet crime worthy of giving up his employment...

Should the perpetual Devs all give up their jobs too?....they dont post here anymore you know...The quicksiver guys dont come around as of late either....should they give up their jobs too?

Talk about a stretch of the imagination....

No, as I have said before, he is accused of abusing his connections in an attempt to draw people to the STGU, whilst ignoring the STG and Trek-Online. He is guilty of insincerity, when it comes to bettering the community as a whole.

Again ,certanty of guilt.....based on speculation... from accused to guilty...

Quote:

People visit different sites, I for example visit STG,

I do too...therefor I am here...

Quote:

you are most likely a STGU fan

Why would you assume that?...because I post there too?...why cannot a person be a fan of both?

I should clarify at this point that I am a "Taldrenite".

I would have to fall into the "die hard fan of a dinosour game" catagory....I have been playing SFC since 11/18/99, have been a Taldren Moderator and beta tester for SFC2,OP and SFC3, and I am currently a forum moderator for DV.net.....but most people know that allready....I'm not exactly shy or un-opinionated....

But I digress...

Quote:

where others would be Trek-Online fans; how is it fair to the community if STGU fans get the ONLY say in development queries simply because Chess has connections within MadDoc?

But as I illustrated on the other thread (or it may have been this one...so many to keep track off....sheesh!) that no one from Maddoc had posted anything....and even then....somehow Chess must have total control over where Developers choose post...or not post?

Self segragation...you do not have a mouse and a keyboard?...you cannot ask a question?

or you will only do it here...

If you want an answer to a question...what does it matter where the answer is posted...or the question for that matter....

*oops battery is low...pesky laptops*

Quote:

Victor or WildCard would both be happy to include other fan sites if the situation were reversed,

When everyone is on good terms...I have no doubt...but things are not on good terms...

Quote:

because they are both in this for the community and the franchise we all love.

No one is disputing their love of the community...it's the actions I take issue with...

How does a boycott help the community?

How does daily rachets of verbal warfare help the community?

How does a GSA Wiz loosing his position help the community?

For what?...to devide when we should be whole?....to distract while we should be enlightened?

This isnt "their community"...or "your community" as Nataku put it...

It's OUR community....and if I didnt care....I wouldnt say a damn word....

Look...I can honestly say I have a lot of respect for the things Vic has accomplished that truely helped the community, clan support, interviews etc...

I even stop by once and a while just to say Hi...Hell...Vic and I have gone toe to toe in the un-moderated forums at SFC2.net...and he has never seen fit to ban me from STG.....and I have alot of respect for that too....

This site is needed for it's members and others...just as STGU is needed by it's members and others....just as DV.net is needed and STO....EVERY site is needed...

One of the lowest actions I've ever witnessed in my time online is someones hosting being attacked by an indivual or group with an axe to grind.......some of the statements reflected on this board such as "kill STGU" or "get em shut down" are NOT reflective of the community spirt some claim to have....it is serves NO ONE...

Quote:

KBF-Crim wrote:

Interesting indeed....but this "other" evidence.....that seems to be clear and convincing enough proof of STGU's evil intents....

Alrighty then....

When did I say STGU was “evil?” I said they are acting in an unfair manner; by ignoring the clans, modders and entire sections of the community. Points explained in my previous statements.

Perhaps "evil" is too strong a word....but what you are saying is ... as of yet...based on "speculation", half truths,mis-understandings, mis-statments, outright retoric ,and inuendo.....

Not the type of stuff I like to base my opinions on....

And you never did respond to the "there was never an agreement" statement.....Vic has clearly said there was an agreement for STGU to stay out of the "clan rhelm"....

How could STGU have ignored something(clans and fleets) that Vic claims STGU agreed to stay away from?

It's an inherantly illogical arguement...it is either one or the other....not both...

[RuneStar]

It was noted that Vic left the advisory board. There seems to be an awful lot of negative conjucture based on a single solitary fact. Actually, I haven't seen any fact pro or against him leaving the board, although a lot of people seem to be spouting opinions as facts.

There is only 1 FACT: Vic left the board.

While there is no denying I question the sudden move of STGU to suddenly start covering clans, I am staying neutral on this point. I can spout any number of opinions as to why Vic left...

Chessmess and most of the people were idiots.
Vic was jealous of Chessmess.
Vic couldn't get control of the board.
The board screwed Vic over.
Vic couldn't stand the environment, but ChessMess decided to ride it out.

These run from in favor of Vic to in favor of Chess to perfectly neutral reasons not involving the two of them. It's a little hasty to be making judgement calls on a single neutral fact.

My wife's mother's best friend (I know, sounds like Spaceballs) was on the Education Commission for California and met with the governors in-person a few times. She left he commission. What can we draw from that?

Those of you who said "nothing," you're absolutely right. You could speculate, but it's not fact, and should only be taken as such, not fact.

Best,

RS

P.S. Those of you curious why she left... it was for health reasons unrelated to the job. Unfortunately, her health became such that she was no longer able to travel back and forth as necessary from the Capital back to her home in Southern California.

[Bishop]

Good GOD Crim, good answer!

Before we go on, do we want to do this like a court case with NOTHING but solid fact? Because we've drifted between the lines on that part a few times.

[Bishop]

KBF-Crim wrote:

And what does have to do with the price of tea in china?

Since when does a fan site admin have the right to dictate whom a developer should or should not hire?

It’s not dictation, it’s personal opinion. Victor’s personal opinion is clear, he does not believe Chess deserves to work for Mad Doc. That will not, in any way, effect Chess’ employment status.

KBF-Crim wrote:

I didnt say it....Vic did...I am simply taking what he said at face value...

And how exactly will Vic do that? Was he suddenly elected Emperor of the Universe while I was at work?

KBF-Crim wrote:

Then I offer my humble suggestion that you research the matter for yourself...

I know that they forced Harry Lang into an interview in order to SAVE the STGU because Chess was ready to walk out. I thought you were insinuating that Vic threatened his job in some way.

KBF-Crim wrote:

speculate?? ...easy?....for whom?

It could not be the simple fact of how other Devs where treated here in the past?

It must be that Chess has exerted complete mind control over people he doesnt even work for?

Bah...

Only one of them has ever been here, Rantz, how could they have been flamed if they’re not even members?

KBF-Crim wrote:

Again ,certanty of guilt.....based on speculation... from accused to guilty...

Look at it this way, Chess works for the Developers, suddenly the Developers show up at his fan site; yet they haven’t even registered on STG or Trek-Online. That is reasonable cause for speculation.

KBF-Crim wrote:

I do too...therefor I am here...

Not in question. Many people have been banned from STGU simply because they offer negative criticism on games. STGU can’t handle it, so they hit the ban button.

KBF-Crim wrote:

Why would you assume that?...because I post there too?...why cannot a person be a fan of both?

That’s not in question either, I assumed it because you’ve only just hit 29 posts on the STG, most of which were in defence or offence to me. So, you’re obviously a greater fan of another site. Simply stating a point, different gamers visit different sites. Some visit multiple sites, others visit them all. But the majority of the community doesn’t visit EVERY fan site.

KBF-Crim wrote:

I should clarify at this point that I am a "Taldrenite".

I would have to fall into the "die hard fan of a dinosour game" catagory....I have been playing SFC since 11/18/99, have been a Taldren Moderator and beta tester for SFC2,OP and SFC3, and I am currently a forum moderator for DV.net.....but most people know that allready....I'm not exactly shy or un-opinionated....

We have something in common, I’ve been in SFC since 99 too. I also agree that this boycott is most likely a hindrance to the community; however I’ve seen STGU back stab before, which is why I support it.

KBF-Crim wrote:

But as I illustrated on the other thread (or it may have been this one...so many to keep track off....sheesh!) that no one from Maddoc had posted anything....and even then....somehow Chess must have total control over where Developers choose post...or not post?

No, they may not be posting, but they’re on there almost every day, reading the opinions and comments. That alone is enough to make an influence on the game. They don’t even visit this board, and they never have. So they haven’t been flamed, because they weren’t here to start with.

KBF-Crim wrote:

Self segragation...you do not have a mouse and a keyboard?...you cannot ask a question?

or you will only do it here...

If you want an answer to a question...what does it matter where the answer is posted...or the question for that matter....

No, no, no. Many people are BANNED from the STGU simply because they disagree with something, or they spoke out of line. How can this be fair? Developers only read highly moderated boards, with main community icons banned? Vic, Katie and Wildcard are all banned.

KBF-Crim wrote:

When everyone is on good terms...I have no doubt...but things are not on good terms...

Vic’s a bigger man than that. He helped STGU when Chess was ready to quit; and they weren’t considered the best of friends back then.

That last part about the clan agreement is for Vic to answer.

[KBF-Crim]

AdmBishop-11thFleet-™ @ Tue May 16, 2006 9:54 pm wrote:

Good GOD Crim, good answer!

Why thank you.....that's an excellent answer yourself...

Quote:

Before we go on, do we want to do this like a court case with NOTHING but solid fact?

Actually....before we go on..I'd like to thank Vic for allowing this conversation to take place at all....


Second...more importantly...Vic isnt on trial....I'm not trying to convict him of anything.....this isnt the




but since you brought it up...

There are other things also used as evidence in court....charactor witnesses, circumstantial evidence,extenuating circumstances,expert witnesses...etc...

Quote:

Because we've drifted between the lines on that part a few times.

Yes we have....Hard not to sometimes when some of the things we hold opinion about are based on our own perceptions from one angle...I'll make every attempt to provide some kind of documentation for my opinions...

I guess that's my whole point hoisting my pitard if you will....I'm obviously percieving the situation in a slightly differing manner from you...and We've both been around long enough to know whats going on.....so I'm mainly curious how we have both arrived at some polar opposite conclusions...

I seek to understand.....I seek the truth...as I said...if I didnt care..I would have never said anything...

I'll get to the reply tommorrow as I have to put my kids to bed....

Or....in the interest of letting this die down....I can refrain....

I consider this a discussion...not a contest of wills...

Up to you...



[/img]

[Bishop]

Well, we've been pissing around with it for a few weeks now. I think we can leave it here and let Vic and Chess settle it.

-Shakes Hands-

Thanks for the debate though.

[Victor1st]

On the subject of the Star Trek Advisory board. Crim, you knew screw all about what happened in that group so for you to sit here like you done a couple of years ago and profess to know everything is just stupid, you got banned for it the last time, dont test my patience anymore. The only reason KBF show up in here is to slag off STG.

The STAB was set up as an advisory board between me, chessmess (seig heil), lang and the folks over at perpetual ent as a system for the fans to give ideas for the MMO plus any new future game to myself and chessmess so we can pass it on to lang and perpetual.

It fell apart for one major reason, perpetual was not wanting to listen to either myself or chessmess. Since then perpetual entertainment has made one blunder after another and to be honest their idea of community management is the same idea's as STGU, they took it from the 3rd Reich and altered it slightly.

Their was also other problems with the STAB. Namely ChessMess and STGU itself. You folks need to remember that the STAB was set up at the beginning of 2005 at a time when their was absolutely no news about anything apart from Legacy.

ChessMess was sprouting off to Lang that everything is fine with the online gamers and the lobbies in GameSpy are getting busier and busier each day. As I said to Lang, whenever ChessMess (SEIG! HEIL!) shows up in GameSpy arcade he gets flamed by half a dozen clan leaders who he has pissed off. ChessMess has no idea whatsoever as to what kind of state the "ground troops" of the online gamers are in, since he himself has not played a star trek game online in TWO YEARS.

Tensions in STAB continued to rise, ChessMess started emailing other folks voicng his discust that he should share a position in STAB with me, several STGU forum members voiced their discust publically, lang said he had to remain neutral so i eventually quit cause of the whining staff that run STGU (SEIG HEIL!).

That is what happened.

[Acidrain]

Runestar,

While there is no denying I question the sudden move of STGU to suddenly start covering clans, I am staying neutral on this point. I can spout any number of opinions as to why Vic left...

Being neutral, yeah that is the problem just like our own politicians in the US they are to moderate and can’t make up their mind. Weak argument, come back with something when you decide what side you want to side with.

Cheers,

Acidrain

[Age]

Quote:

KBF-Crim wrote:
I should clarify at this point that I am a "Taldrenite".

I would have to fall into the "die hard fan of a dinosour game" catagory....I have been playing SFC since 11/18/99, have been a Taldren Moderator and beta tester for SFC2,OP and SFC3, and I am currently a forum moderator for DV.net.....but most people know that allready....I'm not exactly shy or un-opinionated....

Crim when were you ever a Taldren Moderator as I never saw your name in blue as well a Taldren Beta Team tester which if you were you would have it in your sig like Pestalence and Aimie Joe or AJ has.You weren't even a D.net Moderator when it first opened up.What is this with Taldrenites the company is gone closed for good sure I respect them more of Ann and Dave but not to much of Eric who was doing little or nothing for the company except posting in hot&spicey to much.I don't think Ann really liked that to much all play and no work it is why the company closed down.It has nothing to do with a licensing deal between a publisher for Trek Games or not as you don't just make Star Trek games but they were moveing ahead a little with Shadowbane although now sold off.

Don't get me wrong I really like the games they put out in the SFC searies all 4 of them but I am no Taldrenite those who think that live in the past not the future as you keep dreaming for Galaxies at War which may never happen.That is why there is so much resentment between this board and those over D.net not the Admins themselves minnd you but those who know about the past and want to keep living in it.I came over here becuase I don't live in past if anything I dare those to come over and just register but I don't think most over at D.net think of themselves as Taldrenites like you do and won't let go of the past.It is not a healthy thing to keep living in the past.
I am a Star Trek and GuidWars gamer not a Taldrenite,D.netter or even a STG Gamer.

[Bishop]

That’s just Vic’s personal comparison of the STGU and the Third Reich; he’s a very open individual who has never been afraid of speaking his mind. I for one respect that. Granted, it's a little graphic, but the real world isn't all cake and ice cream now is it?

[Acidrain]

What i find with people that think Vic is very defensive is because to be frank it is Americans that dont understand the frankness of the English/UK/Scotish people. I being an American work, go school and grew up with many Europeans specially UK people and so i understand how Vic is and sometimes you need to let things roll off your back because that is the way he is. I wish more people were so frank as Vic is, it is what people like to say political incorrect to act in such a matter. If you dont like the way Vic acts, get over it and beyond your what it is that is offending you. Most likely, it is that your American that is to uptight and simply have been outside of that little beyond the computer screen.

Acidrain